Behind the Brand®

[00:00:00] Jeff Adamson: Welcome to "Behind the Brand," the podcast uncovering the stories of innovators shaping the world of brands. I'm your host, Jeff Adamson, and today's guest is Mark Harrison.

Mark is the visionary founder of the MH3 Collective, a group of ventures dedicated to connecting people and ideas for positive social impact. The Collective includes Humanity, focused on brand revitalization, Sidekick, a team of purpose-driven strategists, T1, a full stack sponsorship and activation agency, and SponsorshipX, a global community of marketing practitioners.

Mark's community involvement extends to boards like Big Brothers Big Sisters of Toronto, the CAMH Foundation, and The JUNO Awards. He is also an advisor to ventures like the NFL Canada and serves on the board of Playmaker Capital. His commitment to giving back to the community includes co-founding Black Talent Initiative and Park Street Education. His remarkable contributions have earned him the Harry Jerome Award and the Association of Canadian Advertisers' 2022 Gold Medal Award.

Join us in this episode to explore Mark's journey, his MH3 vision, and his transformative impact on brands and beyond.

[00:01:32] Jeff Adamson: So I think the thing I wanna start with you first, Mark, is you have so much going on. I struggle to even walk and talk at the same time. How do you keep so many plates spinning at the same time?

[00:01:41] Mark Harrison: For me, I really look at my life in three simple buckets. And I probably, these are my external buckets, if you will. They're not necessarily gonna include my family time.

But, you know, first and foremost is what I'll call my entrepreneurship bucket, which is, like you, the things that I created. Probably to solve problems or scratch an itch. I'd say my second bucket is my social impact bucket. And I probably should've put that bucket first, but the entrepreneurism allows me or provides me with the opportunity to pursue social impact because sometimes costs in life get in the way. And my third bucket it’s really just my, I'll call it more my one-on-one bucket, things that I do with individuals.

So in the first two buckets, you know, one is a for-profit. The second is even more profit because I think with social impact, you're making [an] intergenerational impact. You are you are changing the course of destiny. And I think for me, the third part, which doesn't appear on a website or a LinkedIn page, is just my one-to-one relationships with the people in my business community. And, again, I park my personal stuff to the side, but, you know, I think we're talking about Behind the Brand here today, so we'll focus a little more on the public-facing stuff.

[00:02:12] Jeff Adamson: So how did you get into entrepreneurship, social impact in the first place? Is this something that you started out with kind of right out of school? Or did you did you jump into a corporate job first?

[00:02:24] Mark Harrison: Probably two answers to that. I was actually born into this. I don't think I realized I was born into it until later in life, but I was I was adopted. I was awarded children's aid. I was very, very young, but my mother, you know, early on decided that, you know, she wasn't gonna be able to care for me. I was with her first.

[00:02:40] Jeff Adamson: Whereabouts did you grow up? Was this in Canada?

[00:02:44] Mark Harrison: I was created in Calgary. I was hatched in Ottawa. More detail than you expect [laughs]. And raised in Orillia…

[00:02:53] Jeff Adamson: In Orillia?

[00:02:54] Mark Harrison: And now reside in Toronto.

[00:02:55] Jeff Adamson: Cabin country.

[00:02:56] Mark Harrison: Yeah. Except for the people who live there, right? Everyone else calls it ‘cottage country’, we call it home [laughs]. It's such a weird thing. It's like, you know the birds that migrate? They live in two different places.

[00:03:04] Jeff Adamson: And so your mom adopted you when you were in, so when she was in Ottawa?

[00:03:08] Mark Harrison: My mom gave birth to me in Ottawa. And then I was adopted by the Harrisons. And so they are my parents.

[00:03:13] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:03:08] Mark Harrison: And so to answer your question, I think that for me, that feeling, I knew it at a very young age, like, twelve or thirteen that I was adopted. I had a different set of names. I was given some court papers. And I sort of thought, you know, I don't want somebody else to be able to control my destiny, control my future.

If you're just a box on a corporate org chart and somebody in Atlanta, New York, or Toronto, or Montreal, or Vancouver doesn't like that box, they just cross you out with no assessment of you and your skills and your capabilities.

And then I think the social impact piece was from a very early age, again. Growing up with parents who gave back, but also realizing that I was a beneficiary of [the] system, and I was a beneficiary of generosity. And somebody's saying, I wanna make a family for this little mutt, and that was amazing.

And my parents practiced what they preached, not just [with] me but, I'm older than you, so we sponsored, you know, hate the term, boat people. They were obviously Vietnamese refugees. And so years later, my wife and I supported Syrians coming to Canada. It was just full circle. So I think I was born into it.

The technical answer to your question, I had one job. I worked for a marketing agency for seven years before I quit and started my first business at twenty-nine.

[00:04:19] Jeff Adamson: That is a really interesting background and weird coincidence. So my co-founder and CEO at Neo, Andrew Chau, his parents were boat people, came over…

[00:04:28] Mark Harrison: Oh really?

[00:04:29] Jeff Adamson: Yeah, came over and literally [had] nothing. Couldn’t even put two pennies together, but were able to kinda work and work and work, [and] opened up this small restaurant.

And Some of the stories that these people have, you know, coming to Canada and just working their butts off, it really kinda makes me feel like we take a lot for granted here. When you see just, like, where they come from and how grateful they are for what Canada has to offer. And even, you know, yourself, like, growing up in an adopted family and being able to then kinda turn around and give back. I mean, it's just, that's incredible. And do you think that that helped you look and say, okay, Hey, I wanna control my own destiny? I don't want people to put labels on me. Was that the initial reason why you decided to start your own companies?

[00:05:14] Mark Harrison: I think so. I've always felt like I needed to manage my own destiny. And I tell people, I don't think everybody has to start their own company. I don't think everybody's wired that way, but I firmly believe that people should own their own life. They should own their own career. They should self-manage.

I was also the kid in elementary school that, you know, was told you could only have one paper route, you either had to pick the local paper or one of the Toronto papers. And hopefully, I won't get arrested for saying this, but, you know, I sort of hired my friends and had them fake sign up for paper routes, and everybody bring their papers in my garage, and I'd have a sorting party, and then have guys out running. And I did the collections, trust me. You know, I had a little illegal golf gambling ring going in high school. And in university, I started a marketing club called Team Griffin to help the athletics department do better marketing.

So I feel like self-management was always in my DNA, but I also feel that you know, some of this stuff, you pick up. And I would say when you get older in life, sometimes you look back at your own history and you rewrite your own history, which, you know, make it convenient. But I also think it's connecting [the] dots. And I had some things happen in my life that made me realize, Oh, this is why I did that. But sometimes you don't realize that till later on.

[00:06:22] Jeff Adamson: Yeah. And I think it's a good point you're making there, Mark, on these little projects and experiments that people do early on. Because I think about a lot of people who start companies, especially if people are later on in life, in their thirties and forties, and there's so many valuable lessons that you can learn just from the fundamentals and the basics.

You know, understanding how people behave when they owe you money. Understanding, like, how to how to sell a product, how to build a brand, how to manage a P&L. All these, like, basics, no matter how big or small the company is, they're present. And if you can run a lemonade stand and figure that stuff out, it's probably a little bit better than betting your house on it when you're thirty-five and you've got four kids.

[00:07:01] Mark Harrison: So excited to use the lemonade stand analogy because I use it often. The ironic thing is my father-in-law, who has now passed away, he started his first business at sixty-five. So I think there's pros and cons, right?

Today, an entrepreneur, you know, grabs this and they've got an entire IT department, a movie studio, and a travel business in their phone. And a bank! And when I started, I had a spreadsheet with eleven credit cards that I was managing because I couldn't get a credit line.

So, you know, I had a mortgage at the time on my house that was only 11.75%. So I love telling all these people that are complaining [laughing]. But I also understand the absolute cost of my house is relevant to…

[00:07:39] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:07:40] Mark Harrison: But, you know I started my first business. I bought a BMW. I bought a house, and I quit my job. So to your point, I didn't have children, and that made it easier psychologically.

[00:07:59] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:07:50] Mark Harrison: But yeah, you go in both feet, and I literally had to use eleven credit cards to finance the startup of my first marketing company.

[00:07:57] Jeff Adamson: And so did that make it easier for you because you had that pressure looming over you? Or did you find that, like, that actually made it more difficult? Because I feel like sometimes the more skin in the game you have, when the stakes are the highest, it’s when you kind of dig the deepest. And when you don’t have as much on the line then you’re kind of like, Ah well, if this doesn’t work out then, you know, I’ll just go and do something different.

[00:08:16] Mark Harrison: I don't mean to answer a question with a question, but I'll ask you for this perspective. I think I'm at my best when I'm cornered, and I'm at my worst when things are going well. I'd love your perspective on that.

[00:08:25] Jeff Adamson: I think you're, it's often the case and so I think the challenge is often, like, how can you perform like it's do or die when it really is not?

[00:08:34] Mark Harrison: Mhmm.

[00:08:35] Jeff Adamson: And…

[00:08:36] Mark Harrison: Like, how do you game yourself?

[00:08:37] Jeff Adamson: Well, I think that, I mean there's the famous quote that “necessity is the mother of invention”. And even just when you when you place constraints on something, then you become much more creative. And I do feel like there's an element of that.

I'd love to hear some stories about the early days about where you had no choice but to figure out a way to win. What stories come to mind when you had the eleven credit cards, a mortgage at 11%, all those things hanging over you?

[00:09:08] Mark Harrison: A lot of elevens happening here [laughs].

[00:09:09] Jeff Adamson: [Laughing] Yeah.

[00:09:10] Mark Harrison: Should've been my hockey jersey. I would say this wasn't a crisis, but it was a bit shocking.

So in my one and only job, I worked for a marketing company, where at twenty-four, I had six people working for me who were all older, and I managed a really big Canadian account. And when I was thinking about going out on my own, lots of people were like, Call me. Call me. Call me.

The big shock was when I didn't have the job and the budget and the big brand behind me, I was a nobody.

[00:09:32] Jeff Adamson: Where’d all the people go?

[00:09:33] Mark Harrison: Right! And this is back in the days when you had a phone on your desk that lit up. It wasn't lighting up!

[00:09:40] Jeff Adamson: Like, is the power out or something? Or what's going on here?

[00:09:44] Mark Harrison: Yeah, right? [Laughing] Like I wasn't getting any red.

And here I am in my office, which was in a den in my house with my vice president beside me, Buddy the beagle. And I read some entrepreneurship book that said “Put a suit on every day even if you're not going anywhere”, and the phone wasn't ringing. One thing I didn't mention is I worked in the consumer promotions business, and my first job or first company was a sports marketing agency. And all my friends said, You've never worked in sports marketing, how can you open up a company in that?

And I said, well, I like sports and I like marketing. Bad answer. And so I did, but I quickly realized that all the people that promised they were gonna call didn't call. So the first thing I realized is [that] I had no background, I had no credibility, I had no brand. I had to build my own brand.

[00:10:28] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:10:28] Mark Harrison: And I had to get into rooms.

[00:10:29] Jeff Adamson: So how did you do that? Because I think there's no one that's gonna do that for you. So what were some of the steps that you took to build your own personal brand?

[00:10:35] Mark Harrison: I went immediately to what I'll call thought leadership. I think I used to actually use this term. If there's any of my former interns listening, they probably heard this lecture. I think I used to call it, like, the ‘omnipresent theory’. Every time a decision-maker turned around, I wanted to be there. So…

[00:10:50] Jeff Adamson: [Laughing] Kinda creepy in some ways, though.

[00:10:53] Mark Harrison: Very creepy! It's gonna get worse. Creepier.

And so one of the things that I did was I was like, Okay where can I meet prospective clients? And I, you know, I couldn't afford to join industry associations. I couldn't afford to go to conferences. But [what] I stumbled on talking to people [is] that a lot of people ran press conferences. And one thing about press conferences is the PR firm always wants seat pillars.

[00:11:19] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:11:19] Mark Harrison: And so I started a little, it's true to this day, okay? [Laughing] You've probably had it when you're launching something and the agency's like, Jeff, we got tons of media coming. And then they're like, Phone your cousin, tell him to bring his camera, right? Stick a CBC logo on it.

[00:11:34] Jeff Adamson: [Laughing] That's very true.

[00:11:35] Mark Harrison: So I started a little newsletter about the industry, and I would find out through PR agencies and wire services when people are having press conferences, and I would ask for media accreditation. And so there I am, [a] creepy guy with eleven credit cards and [an] 11% mortgage and no money to feed himself. I'm at the food barn early for the muffins and croissants, and I'm there. And at the next event you see me, and [at] the next event you see me.

So I actually you know, the the strategy was really thought leadership. The newsletter worked. I'd phone people, I would interview them. I'd type them up in my little newsletter. I would fax it out to people. Yes, I'm dating myself. I would go to these events. And then what would happen is I would apply to speak.

But I think those principles hold true to this day. Thought leadership, industry presence, finding out what's going on. I love nothing more than hearing from other people. What people are working on is a way to gather intel.

[00:12:24] Jeff Adamson: Oh, it's also just showing up too. Like, people always say showing up is ninety percent of the battle or whatever it is. If you have the guts to get there, and then now you're like, Oh, well I'm here now and there's these important decision makers that are here. So how much of a waste would it be if I didn't at least even pitch them or introduce myself or build a relationship in some way?

Is that kinda how you thought about it too? Or was there more thought that went into it? Were you more strategic?

[00:12:48] Mark Harrison: There was more thought. So the other, there's really three tenets to why I started my business. One was I wanted to control my destiny. So I had been fortunate enough to work at a company that was a complete Titanic. And I long advise young people, if you're gonna go somewhere, either go to a rocketship or go to a sinking ship. Don't go to a smooth sailing [ship]. Like, you're not gonna learn a thing on calm waters.

[00:13:12] Jeff Adamson: That is very true.

[00:13:13] Mark Harrison: There's nothing wrong with going to a sinking ship, because you can't lose. If it sinks, it wasn't your fault. And if anybody gets saved or the ship comes up, you're a hero.

[00:13:21] Jeff Adamson: Hundred percent.

[00:13:22] Mark Harrison: But I worked at a sinking ship and built a reputation. But as I was there, I was like, I need to control my own destiny. Secondly, I worked for a guy, even though we're a marketing company, who thought that our clients were the enemy. I thoroughly believe to this day that my client is not a company or a corporation, it's the individual sitting across the desk for me.

[00:13:41] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:13:42] Mark Harrison: And so I wanted to create an environment where I could actually spend more time worrying about Kelly, than Kelly's company. And that was a big piece of what I wanted to do.

And then the third thing is because I think I've always believed in community. Back to your earlier point, I was just, like, back to showing up, my strategy was, I wanna be a part of this community from day one. I don't wanna wait till I'm running the biggest company or I got tenure, I wanna be a part of it right now. If we can both agree that strategy is a metaphor for plans, there was a strategy, and that was my plan.

[00:14:10] Jeff Adamson: At the company that was a sinking ship, what did you find… and the reason I'm asking this question is because there's a lot of people who are going through difficulties. You know, you look at not just tech companies, but you've got [a] cost of living crisis, and you've got inflation. You've got logistics and supply chain issues. Companies are cutting back.

So a lot of people, I think are, their careers, I think, probably for the last ten, fifteen years, especially people my age in their thirties, it was pretty, I'd say, calm seas. None of them had ever really had a storm and now we're kinda heading into one is what everyone keeps saying, and and you're starting to see it happen. There's a recession coming, people have been saying that for a while.

So what what did you find effective when the waters got choppy, to really rally everyone and to turn the ship around?

[00:14:56] Mark Harrison: So the company I was at, we had a piece of business, it's Mars Canada, at the time it was Effem Canada. And I remember my very first meeting, my boss, who is the owner of our company's best friend, steps out with the client's boss to have a smoke. And the guy looking across from me said to me, and I was twenty-two years old with a big afro and a brown suit, driving an old Volare, and he leans in and says, Just so you know, we hate your company.

[00:15:25] Jeff Adamson: Oh!

[00:15:25] Mark Harrison: This is my very first meeting of my entire career.

[00:15:28] Jeff Adamson: Ooh! That's spicy.

[00:15:30] Mark Harrison: We hate your company. We hate your owner. The only reason we work with you is [because] your owner and our VP of Marketing went to the University of Manitoba together.

[00:15:38] Jeff Adamson: Nice Winnipeg connection there.

[00:15:40] Mark Harrison: So what did I do? I do what I did a lot in my career, [I] called my mom. Not because I'm a mama's boy. Growing up my mom was, The you can do anything you want to do in life person, and my dad was, Befriend the janitors. That was my dad's entire operating system. In any organization, get to know the janitors because every organization has janitors.

Mom, what do I do? They hate me.

What did they say?

They said they hate the company.

Well, they don't hate you.

This was the smallest account in the company and we had a chance we were gonna lose it. And so first of all, I realized it wasn't personal. Secondly, I was like, the good news is [there’s] nowhere to go but up. And thirdly, even at that age, I focused on that person. How can I help their career? And at twenty-two, I found myself becoming a confidant of thirty-year-olds, and forty-year-olds, and fifty-year-olds. I wanna get promoted, stuff going on personally, stuff going on with the kids.

I made that comment earlier about community. So I made it my mission, I'm gonna turn this into the number one account we have. I'm twenty-two years old.

[00:16:35] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:16:36] Mark Harrison: I'm working for the owner's boss, who's an idiot, by the way. Like, he's a total idiot. But I was like, I'm going to make myself irreplaceable, invaluable to these clients. I'm going to solve their problems. I'm gonna solve them personally. I'm gonna solve them professionally.

[00:16:50] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:16:50] Mark Harrison: I'm gonna focus on that.

[00:16:51] Jeff Adamson: And so tell me a bit more about that, though. Was it purely relationship-based? Was it, did you make some big swings? Or was it really just bit by bit by bit working your way into this account?

[00:17:03] Mark Harrison: I would call it a hundred percent deliverable. So I'll try to make this relatively short but I actually started my job in my last year of university because I switched programs. So I was in my fifth year, [and] had extra credits. So I was working [from] January to April part-time, three days a week, driving back and forth from Guelph to Toronto, and then I was gonna go full-time.

But I decided working for this boss guy, that this guy was an idiot. I was gonna quit. I couldn't stand him. I told a couple of people. I graduate and my owner says, I got you two graduation presents. So I'm like, well, I'm actually here to quit. Just hear me out.

The first present was he fired Bob, who was his best friend. So I've been there three months, and he's firing his best friend. I'm twenty-two. Best friend's like, thirty-seven. And then he gives me a new car. Like, literally. Like, I'm kinda like, what happened here? But he knew I was gonna make him money. Now I'm not saying he's a good guy.

So the first was I convinced everybody internally I could solve this. They gave me a couple more bosses, [which] didn't work out, but ultimately, I became the boss. And my entire focus with the client was to understand what makes her tick. Is it getting promoted? Is it stuff going on in their lives? They weren't big bets. There's a couple which I'll share with you. But it was convincing them that I was their person, 7/24/365, to get stuff done. And it rains.

I had one client who was super smart, very much a visionary, never got anything done. One day, I said to him, you've got the big XYZ brand, I won't say the brand in case he's listening [laughs], presentation on Thursday. How's that deck going?

He's like, oh, man. I can't get it done, I'm screwed. I have all these ideas. I might just wing it.

I said, No, no, no. I'm coming to your house tonight.

Came to his house, took notes, went back to the office, typed up the plan, made a PowerPoint, gave it back to him, no branding. He went and presented like a hero.

[00:18:42] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:18:42] Mark Harrison: Is that my job? Is that right of him to do? I don't care. That's what you do, right?

[00:18:47] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:18:48] Mark Harrison: Another time, we were called into a big meeting. The owners of Mars Canada are the Mars brothers, they were up wanting to know our new plans to launch Pal Dog Food Wet. All the agencies have their presence there. I'm twenty-three and three-quarters. The Mars brothers are shooting down the advertising and the PR and everything, and they turn to me, or they turn to my client and say, Who's the president of our promotions agency? And they said, Well, he's not here today, he's out of the country. It was a lie, he was golfing. But his account partner is here. And I look like I'm eleven years old, by the way.

So they look at me, and I'm looking at them. It's kinda like Eddie Murphy in that Trading Places movie where the two old white guys sit on the couch wondering what they're gonna do with him, right? I'm like, Oh, I'm screwed. But we're in the lab where the dogs, like the tasting lab where the dogs ate the food.

[00:19:30] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:19:30] Mark Harrison: So there's dogs around us and food. So I got down on all fours in my same suit, put my face into the dog food, and I started eating. [The] dogs weren't happy, I was pushing them away.

And while I'm down there eating the dog food, literally, there's no metaphor here, like, I'm eating the dog food. I get up and I kinda wiped my chin and took a sip of water. I said, I'm sorry, Mr. Mars. Mr. Mars, I said, I think it'd be disingenuous for me to tell you what my promotional ideas were without ever having tried the product.

[00:19:59] Jeff Adamson: [Laughing] Jesus.

[00:20:02] Mark Harrison: [Laughing] So the room goes silent, they look at each other, and then they go, everybody, eat the dog food. So you had all these people in their fancy outfits, and they're hating me while I'm in the corner.

That was probably a pretty big bet because I could have been arrested. We probably could have been fired. But by eating the dog food, I was like, this is the extent I'm willing to go.

[00:21:10] Mark Harrison: There were a lot of strategic things. It was bringing in new ideas, and it was doing stuff that I think is basic. So I would subscribe to US Trade Magazines. This is pre-internet, you gotta remember, right? There wasn't social.

[00:21:20] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:21:20] Mark Harrison: I'd subscribe to US Trade magazines of any category I worked in. So one day, I see that our US counterparts are running this cool promotion called ‘Chunks of Gold’, where they put actual gold in the dog food in the US.

[00:21:31] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:21:31] Mark Harrison: And I tell the team in Canada, Why aren't we running this? They said, Well we can't because our government won't let us put prizes in the food. And they said, But thanks for bringing it to us, and they appreciated that I was going above and beyond, and not just doing what I was asked, I was understanding the category. And that's one thing I'd say to anybody, whether you own a brand or you're servicing people, like, you gotta understand the business beyond anything that's offered to you. If all you're doing in a report is the five things asked, what are the twenty-five others?

[00:22:01] Jeff Adamson: There's a couple [of] things there that I wanna double click on because I think they're really underrated.

One the, when your partner or client or whoever it is, when they know the level of commitment that you have and the extent that you're willing to go to for them, I think it really means a ton and it's uncommon. It kinda transcends, you know, the marketing materials and the contract because so much of the relationship will fall outside of those things, and that's ultimately, I think, where the rubber hits the road is the strength of the relationship and how far the people working together with you are willing to go.

And the second thing you said, Mark, was really around knowing things about the industry that clients potentially would be surprised to know that you know. You know, I've been in meetings where you can, you see someone bring something up [and] the people across the table are impressed that the person knows those things.

[00:22:54] Mark Harrison: Right.

[00:22:54] Jeff Adamson: When they are in meeting after meeting after meeting and no one's really…

[00:22:59] Mark Harrison: There’s no time to think.

[00:22:59] Jeff Adamson: Yeah, there’s no time to think but they also are hearing a lot of the same things. And I feel like with so much information that people get thrown at them nowadays, it's so much pattern recognition. And so they're just like, Okay, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, it's kinda the same thing, rinse and repeat. You know, it's the one thing that was different that stood out from the rest of the herd that wins you, you know, the contract, the deal, or the partnership or whatever it is.

I'd love to hear like because you're big on on partnerships and sponsorships. Like, you've built a career on this. I'd love to hear kind of your approach to partner[ing]. I think I have an understanding of some of the ways that you got to it, but partnerships are a big thing now. I mean we, at Neo we do tons. But you see all these large companies are all looking for different ways to partner. What has been your approach to partnering and how has that evolved throughout your career?

[00:23:43] Mark Harrison: I think when a big brand wants to partner with, whether it be a traditional sponsorship, get involved with the charity, double down on influencers or musicians, the person across the desk from them, or the person making the decision, their first and foremost thought is, Will this get me fired? Right?

So nobody gets fired for sponsoring the Calgary Stampede, or the Montreal Canadians, or the New York Yankees, or Coachella. But really, our job as the people in between is to convince them that, Hey, these are the business opportunities you should be pursuing, and we have a bunch of criteria, and we can talk about some of that. And here's why you should do it. And I'd say the big change that I've seen is that ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, it's really hard to talk people off the I don't wanna get fired or my CEO wants to do that.

[00:24:36] Jeff Adamson: Hundred percent.

[00:24:37] Mark Harrison: Whereas now, you still have some bias, but there's a lot more belief and commitment to understanding the data, understanding insights, understanding exploring. And I think that's one of the key differences that I'll pause on is that. And the industry has become better at it.

There's still a lot of sales where there's, you know, the corporate hosting or this and that and there's nothing wrong with that, but that isn't the through line. And I think that in the sport[s] and entertainment world, and I have nothing to do with them, people like Red Bull have shown the way in that through line.

But then you can flip over and look at brands like, you know, tentree, who literally was started as a social enterprise that happens to sell clothing and people go, Oh my gosh. Like, there's a really well connected and the data supports it because If their products suck, consumers wouldn’t buy it just because they're supporting the environment, but they're also building innovative technology. So that's a bit of a ramble, but I'd say the single biggest difference, the industry has collectively become more sophisticated, and by doing so has become less biased.

[00:25:44] Jeff Adamson: I agree with you and honestly I'm ashamed to admit it that it's gotten easier because I feel like it's still very difficult for large companies and people within large companies to take risks. And so for me to imagine that it was harder it's actually kind of a bit demotivating for me because it feels like it's really hard right now. But it makes sense though, that you can at least prove that partnerships are working through data and insights, whereas ten years ago, twenty years ago, those things would have been much more difficult.

[00:26:09] Mark Harrison: I think it's also where you are. So we can't talk about taking risks without talking about, in partnership, without talking about Bud Light. And what Bud Light did in the US, they did the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. And then they had the wrong response for the wrong reasons. And then they had, on top of it, the wrong response for the wrong reasons. And ultimately we wound up in a situation where, you know, again this is third-hand info, but, you know, you had people getting death threats. You had you had alleged celebrities, you know, protesting the brand.

Whereas in Canada, at first they got nervous, and they're not a client so I wanna be clear, like, I'm just an observer. But then they doubled down on, No, no, no. We've always supported the queer community. We have a right to support. So I think there is, unfortunately, a market-by-market situation on taking risks.

[00:26:58] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:26:56] Mark Harrison: But yeah, to your point, I guess the reason I think it was harder is we didn't have the data fifteen years ago to go to the boss and say, No. I mean, the ironic thing is I was gonna use golf as a metaphor, but golf has innovated so much that it's actually not just because the CEO wants to do it because there's actually some really powerful things you can do in it.

[00:27:14] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:27:14] Mark Harrison: But we have the data now.

[00:27:17] Jeff Adamson: I mean, you can use the data to kinda prove that a deal makes sense or a partnership makes sense, but oftentimes you're not gonna have the data beforehand. After the fact, yes.

I'd love to hear kinda like how have you, and I'm sure you've worked on lots of sponsorship deals throughout throughout your career where there's a leap of faith involved, and you actually need to get people in large companies to take risks. What have you found successful in getting people to understand the risk-reward ratio?

[00:27:39] Mark Harrison: I would say if we were spending a hundred dollars on analysis, that to your point, ten years ago…

[00:27:49] Jeff Adamson: Yep.

[00:27:50] Mark Harrison: It was ten upfront and ninety at the back. And now I would say it's probably, if it isn't fifty-fifty, it might even be sixty percent upfront. Because we now have tools. So what tools do we have? Well, we have publicly-domain tools. So we can go and do social listening and actually understand when a property tells us that this is how their audience engages.

[00:28:04] Jeff Adamson: Quick question. Sorry to interrupt. But so you mean, like, fifty-fifty in terms of, like, fifty percent of the deal value would be upfront, fifty percent of the deal value would be tailing or trailing?

[00:28:11] Mark Harrison: That’s [a] great question. Fifty percent of our effort and dollars on analysis are upfront.

[00:28:22] Jeff Adamson: Okay.

[00:28:23] Mark Harrison: So valuation versus evaluation. So not the deal…

[00:28:26] Jeff Adamson: Okay.

[00:28:27] Mark Harrison: Our work, our industry's work. To your point, we can bring in a lot of data points ahead of time, whereas before it used to be all on the exit. And the data points coming in are related to understanding, you know, the consumer's connection to the ideas, understanding the value and reputation of the organization, utilizing comparables from different sectors, and building a model.

So there's a lot of great subscription services, you can pull stuff together and most everyone in the business then puts that together in their own recipe, right? And you might use an InstaPot, and I might use a pressure cooker, but we both have our models.

[00:29:04] Jeff Adamson: When you think about all the deals you've done over your career, which sponsorship or partnership are you most proud of? Like, what stands out? And it doesn't need to be the biggest, but the one where you're like, Man, this one was special.

[00:29:16] Mark Harrison: This is like children though, right? You're asking me to pick. There's a few. I think that one of them is probably, I was actually doing some consulting work. So when I started my business, I was [doing] consulting work for both properties and brands, and I still am.

But I helped the Calgary Stampede figure out the telco category that wound up with their Bell relationship, and that relationship has endured for decades. And it really was how Bell planted their flag in Western Canada. And so what I love about that deal and it was big, but it was beyond sponsorship. It was part of the business imperatives, right? It unlocked business accounts, it provided credibility that Bell was gonna be here. And I don't work with Bell anymore. I was actually, the Stampede was my client at the time, I was a consultant to them, and I was tasked with running the process to figure out, should they stick with, I think they were actually called AGT at the time, tells you how long ago this was.

[00:30:08] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:30:08] Mark Harrison: And there was some other big players like Rollcom who went bankrupt and, which was great because they were super rude to me in the process, I didn't mind [them] going bankrupt. But for me, that deal was really important to how sponsorship should be used because, to me, it should be at the heart of your business.

And another deal that I'll talk about is a deal that I talked a client out of. So I did some work years ago for the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation…

[00:30:30] Jeff Adamson: So you killed the deal?

[00:30:31] Mark Harrison: Yes.

[00:30:32] Jeff Adamson: Interesting.

[00:30:33] Mark Harrison: And they had an opportune with a carmaker. And I didn't think they were getting enough money from the carmaker, and the carmaker wasn't valuing the brand equity in the Run for the Cure that you know, I thought they should have.

[00:30:43] Jeff Adamson: Mhmm.

[00:30:44] Mark Harrison: And so in order to talk them out of that deal, we got them to give us some time and money to actually go and look at the car sector. And what we understood was, this was, we're getting this much money offered by head office. I'm trying to find a physical metaphor on a podcast. So pretend, we're getting ten bucks from the head office, and there are a hundred run sites. But what we found is that [for] each of the run sites, the local car dealer in town wanted to be involved and if [the] head office bought it, we were constrained. So they are better off getting fifty cents from every one of the car dealers in a hundred market[s] and grossing fifty dollars versus taking the head office deal for ten.

And I knew they were undervalued. I knew that the carmaker was like, Oh, this cancer charity, they'll be happy to have us.

[00:31:25] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:31:25] Mark Harrison: I knew that local dealers would activate more. So those are two examples.

[00:31:28] Jeff Adamson: When I think of entrepreneurship, I look at everything that you've done, and I mean, like, you have thirteen ongoing projects. I know you had said that kinda falls into three different buckets, but I'm doing basically one thing right now and, like, and…

[00:31:42] Mark Harrison: On a much larger scale, so let's not, let's not…

[00:31:44] Jeff Adamson: But it feels

[00:31:45] Mark Harrison: Are we serving humble pie today? Because I'm not eating it [laughing].

[00:31:44] Jeff Adamson: [Laughing] But still… so thirteen and which I think is an amazing thing, like because I personally believe entrepreneurship is important to Canada. I'd love to hear why you think entrepreneurship is important in Canada. Or is it perhaps the alternative to entrepreneurship? You know, are bigger companies more important?

[00:32:02] Mark Harrison: I think entrepreneurship is the profession of the future, and I think ‘entrepreneurial’ is the trait of the future.

[00:32:15] Jeff Adamson: Why is that?

[00:32:16] Mark Harrison: There's a few reasons. One is, entrepreneurship is the opportunity for those like your cofounder, maybe yourself and maybe me, or maybe we weren't born into it, to achieve. Entrepreneurship is the place for black women, for marginalized people, refugees to come and earn without being told… their value isn't determined by a chart or a system or a set of tiers, but their value is determined by what they're able to contribute to society.

And entrepreneurship, I believe, provides innovation, resilience, and not to sort of take it to a dark place but if you look at the Russian invasion in Ukraine, like, the entire drone and defense network, there's this tech army in Ukraine. They are better innovators and entrepreneurs. And now it's actually coming, and actually if you think about the history of war, unfortunately, innovation has has often been at its peak.

[00:33:08] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:33:09] Mark Harrison: During war and invasion and crisis and back to your earlier point.

I feel like [if] everybody was an entrepreneur for a time in their life and they had to deal with raising money, as you have, creditors bleeding down your neck, stock people talking about you, literally watching how many orders you got by the minute going, Crap that new offer we put out isn't working. We gotta pivot.

[00:33:29] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:33:30] Mark Harrison: You can't replace that. The things you learn, how to create resources out of nothing, the skill set. And I think when you combine those things, the opportunity for entrepreneurship, you get to set your destiny.

I never wanted to pursue entrepreneurship on the concept of, I’m gonna do this and spit a unicorn out and do that and spit a unicorn out. But I've always felt like if I have my own things, that I can control my business, and I'm my harshest critic, the last thing I'll say is I like being accountable for my own mistakes. I don't like being accountable for somebody else's mistakes.

[00:34:06] Jeff Adamson: Yeah and in a lot of ways it just mimics real life. You don’t have anyone protecting you, the consequences are real, the risks are real, you can't hide. No one's gonna shield you from the realities of the world. Customers aren't gonna just give you their money out of the kindness of their heart. People aren't gonna just go out and say nice things for no reason. You really have to face all of it. And I find that the people that hide from it are often the people that, their companies don't survive because it eventually will catch up to them.

[00:34:28] Mark Harrison: Let me tell you a quick story about the difference between an entrepreneur and somebody who's never had to be [an] entrepreneur in their lives. So 2020 hits, [the] world shuts down, I have seventy-five full-time people, I lose eighty percent of my business in two hours. Like it just, Friday the, literally Friday the thirteenth, right?

[00:34:45] Jeff Adamson: March 13th 2020.

[00:34:46] Mark Harrison: So we're scrambling, and we hear about these little government programs and this and that. And I don't wanna lay people off and I have leases and whatever. And so we have a conversation with, you know, the BDC. They're putting out emergency loans.

[00:35:03] Jeff Adamson: Yep.

[00:35:04] Mark Harrison: Our CFO goes and fills out the form, and we get rejected. Why? Because we don't have a credit history. Why? Because I built this little tree fort, lemonade stand from one person to seventy-five [over] twenty-six years, I'd never had a credit line. Now I have credit cards [but] they're all personal.

[00:35:15] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:35:16] Mark Harrison: So think about this, you're working at a company, at a big bank, and you have a form where you're inputting data from this entrepreneur who's created seventy-five jobs that pay taxes, not to mention all the suppliers and all the rest of it…

[00:35:34] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:35:34] Mark Harrison: And the brands we work with. And I'm credit, I'm not credit-worthy? I'm a zero! That story is the difference between an entrepreneur and a manager.

[00:35:38] Jeff Adamson: Having to deal with situations like that and to deal with what's broken, essentially, and then figure out a way. Entrepreneurship is on the decline at the moment in Canada.

[00:35:55] Mark Harrison: I've heard!

[00:35:56] Jeff Adamson: And it's never been easier to start a company. Why is that?

[00:36:00] Mark Harrison: I wish I knew. I mean, I've probably read the same things you have. I have thought about this a little bit, and I was actually asked this question the other day by a journalist. So I'm cheating a bit because I flopped through my answer, and when I walked away later, I realized, think the answer is in story.

[00:36:13] Jeff Adamson: You’ve gotta do over here, Mark.

[00:36:15] Mark Harrison: I think we have not created an environment where we have told people, this country, this city, this province where we live It's supportive of entrepreneurs. That we have put so many mental and psychological barriers up. We are not cheerleading for it. We have city council's deciding we're gonna restrict the number of Uber licenses because we're saving the environment. Don't get me wrong, save the environment. But everything that is said to us from government, from institutions, from big business. You know, if you're a small supplier and you go to try to fell to a big tower, and they wanna like, when you apply to get become a supplier to some companies and they ask for, like, two years of audited financial statements. Do they even freaking know how much it costs you to get financial statements audited? What if you're a startup?

[00:36:58] Jeff Adamson: Yeah.

[00:36:58] Mark Harrison: What if you quit your job yesterday? It's about the story. The story, is I'm gonna bang on Jeff's head till he goes back into his little place and does what he's told. We need to change the story. And that's why, you know, folks like you, that are out there, and I think of my friend circle, we have to change the story. So thank you for the do-over.

[00:37:17] Jeff Adamson: I think that's a great answer, and I think it does tie into a lot of the culture that we have in Canada. We had Colin Deacon on the podcast, Senator Colin Deacon, I think you, call him by his correct name. We were talking about this culture we have in Canada where we kinda like seeing our heroes fall a little bit, you know?

And if you did well, it was because you probably took from someone else, in some ways. Like, it's a fixed pie. And if your slice of that pie grew, it was because you took someone else's slice. And maybe it's because we haven't had enough breakout successes in the last fifty years. Like and a lot of them have been barely publicized. Like, the one I talk about here locally in Calgary is Solium.

Solium was a multibillion-dollar tech startup, grew over a period of twenty years, it was sold for $1.3 billion to [a] massive American bank, Morgan Stanley. And if I were to ask a hundred people on the streets in Calgary, have you heard of Solium? Maybe one or two would have said that they knew.

So I think, I mean, people doing what you're doing, getting after it, and starting things and figuring it out as you go and pushing the envelope, challenging the status quo, I mean, you're exactly what I think we need more of in Canada, Mark. And so I wanna thank you for coming on and telling a bit about your story. I feel like we're only just scratching the surface here. Like, you're you didn't even touch on, like, you're involved in the Juno's, you're involved in Black Talent Initiative. Like, you've got, there's a ton of things. Maybe we'll have to do a do-over maybe in twelve months and share notes again.

[00:40:02] Mark Harrison: Well you know, this is what happens when people like me just get starting on their stories and start babbling on about eating the dog food.

[00:40:09] Jeff Adamson: Well that's, like, I cannot wait to have my next team huddle [laughing].

[00:40:13] Mark Harrison: I appreciate the conversation. I think that the fact that you're on your second amazing startup, first one becoming, you know, part of a global conglomerate, but in my mind, also still a really great Canadian brand and [has] done some pretty amazing things.

You know, I'm sure that it doesn't go unnoticed in your life that, you know, you guys are operating you're not, you didn't have to move to Toronto or New York or Chicago to do it. But I'm sure there are days when on the way, you're like, [if] we moved to Silicon Valley, we moved here, we moved to, you know, London, like, it would be cheaper, easier access to money. And Canada needs more jobs. We need to sell the story and the full story. And it's not because everybody needs to become an entrepreneur, but over half our population is employed in small businesses. Over half!

[00:40:55] Jeff Adamson: Yeah. Ninety-eight percent of companies in Canada are small businesses.

[00:40:58] Mark Harrison: You and I can't afford the lobbyists and the propaganda machines, but, like, once in a while, we just need a break. And I think to your point, even just a pat on the back from somebody as opposed to a critical eye.

[00:41:10] Jeff Adamson: You know, maybe to end it on this is that for anyone who's thinking about starting a company, succeed or fail, you have the respect of every other entrepreneur because they understand that it's not about whether you kind of hit the home run on the first try.

Like, the respect that I have for people who are just getting after it, and they're saying, Hey, I see a problem. I'm gonna go and solve it. You know, I wanna forge my own destiny, control my future. It doesn't matter if you succeed. It really just matters that you're getting after it, and I feel like a lot of people are just afraid, potentially, of what are people gonna think if it doesn't work out?

And so if you are on the sidelines at the moment, you know, obviously, do your work, have a good team, get everything in order, and then go for it. So thank you, Mark, for coming on. This has been great.

[00:41:56] Mark Harrison: I appreciate that, it was fun.

[00:42:12] Jeff: Thank you for tuning into Behind the Brand. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe and leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. If you’re interested in learning more about Neo Financial, visit us at neofinancial.com.

Behind the Brand is a production of Neo Financial and MediaLab YYC. Hosted by Jeff Adamson. Strategy, research, and production by Keegan Sharp, Alana Tefledzuk, and Kyle Marshall.