Behind the Brand®

Jeff Adamson [00:00:05] Welcome to Behind the Brand presented by Neo. We take an inside look at the leaders behind today’s most influential brands. I’m your host, Jeff Adamson. As co-founder of Neo Financial and SkipTheDishes, I’m fascinated by what it takes to build great companies.
On this podcast, we’ll learn from leaders that are reimagining, transforming, and innovating in the financial and retail industries across Canada. Let’s get going!

I am excited to introduce Bruce Sellery, a personal finance extraordinaire. As a business journalist, TV host, author, speaker, and CEO of Credit Canada, Bruce has dedicated the last 15 years to educating Canadians on personal finance and inspiring them to get a handle on their money.

Appearing regularly on Cityline and Breakfast Television, Bruce is Canada’s foremost thought leader in financial literacy, engaging audiences in a smart, fun, and high energy way.

Welcome to the show, Bruce!

Okay. Softball question number one, where is the market heading?

Bruce Sellery [00:00:54] The stock market?

Jeff [00:00:55] Yes.

Bruce [00:00:56] Because, you know, there are many markets, right? There's like wheat futures. There is real estate. You are clearly single minded. Where is the stock market headed? I have no idea. And I don't care. And most people should not care.

Jeff [00:01:13] But why does everyone obsess so much about where it is right now then?

Bruce [00:01:18] Because their eyes [are] on the wrong thing. It is a bright, shiny object. People think they're supposed to pay attention to the stock market. There is so much news and headlines and “oh my goodness, I don't even know. I don't know.” And really, it makes so little difference because what most Canadians should be doing is investing for retirement. That's what most Canadians should be doing. And so if you're 25, you've got 40 years of runway. If you're 65, you've still got a lot of years of runway because 100% of your portfolio shouldn't be in the stock market. So if it completely tanks for three years, who cares? It doesn't matter. And in fact, it's like, I don't know, double discount day a Winners. Awesome. Throw some more money in there. Listen, I spent many years of my career covering the stock market, not just on the month or the day, but the minute. So I understand the obsession, but now that I am away from that, I have weaned myself off the drug that is the market updates. I can see that it doesn't really matter. And in fact, I think it's a big distraction.

Jeff [00:02:21] But you didn't start your career out covering the stock market. You started out working for P&G. Why did you make the move into journalism, specifically covering the stock market, covering personal finance?

Bruce [00:02:30] Do you want the real answer? Like the honest answer?

Jeff [00:02:32] I was looking for the dishonest answer actually.

Bruce [00:02:34] Oh! The dishonest answer. Okay, here's the lie. Because I wanted to make a difference for people in their understanding of the nuance of business. That's the lie. That's a complete lie. It is not at all why I left a really great job that paid me a lot of money. The reason I left a great job at a great company, paying me a lot of money, is because I wanted to be on television. Which it’s the God's honest truth. I have wanted to be on television since I was a child. I came home from school the day that Ronald Reagan was shot in 1980, and I watched the TV coverage of that world event for 12 hours straight. And for years, I just had this dream that I would be a witness to history. The way I said it first off sounded super narcissistic, but it's not as narcissistic in truth as it sounds. I am a storyteller. I love bearing witness to things that are important to our world. And so after staring at a wall of facial tissue box covers, I was the brand manager for Royale, and understanding the analysis of the subsegment that preferred the country, turquoise ducks on the box cover. I realized, “Oh my God, I hate my job and therefore I hate my life. I need to resign.” And I walked in and quit.

Jeff [00:03:58] But so many people are in the situation like you were where you're making great money, you kind of are climbing the corporate ladder. I think companies, especially big companies, are really good at dangling something right in front of you, whether that be a promotion or raise. And I think a lot of people can't make that leap. Financially, it probably wasn't the best move for you to switch careers.

Bruce [00:04:17] It was a terrible, terrible, terrible financial move. The worst, I will tell you the catalyst. So I got this book called ‘I Could Do Anything, If Only I Knew What it Was’. And I flew to Central America and spent three weeks by myself in Guatemala and Honduras. And I read that book and there was a chapter called ‘On the Wrong Ladder and Climbing Fast’. And it was like I was looking in a mirror that illuminated my soul because I knew that that's not why I was put on this planet, was to sell facial tissue. And I really, truly loved the company and I loved the job that I had there. But it wasn't my purpose. It wasn't what I was meant to do. So I think that insight led to the action, which was to go in and resign. Now, it wasn't easy for me. I had that insight in an airport in El Salvador. I picked up the phone and called my very best friend on the planet. And I said to her, “I am going to quit my job. And as soon as this plane lands back in Toronto, I'm going to change my mind. So you need to remind me that we had this phone conversation in which I said, I'm going to quit my job.”

Jeff [00:05:27] And how old were you at the time?

Bruce [00:05:28] I was 27. “So you have to remind me that this is what I've said I'm going to do, because I'm going to chicken out.” And she's the kind of best friend who would drive to my house in the middle of the night, duct tape my face, put me in the trunk of her car, take me to my boss's house and at gunpoint, force me to follow through on what I said I was going to do. She's that kind of a friend. And so I did it. But I knew that it would be an excruciating execution of the decision. The actual words falling out of my mouth would be brutal. And they were, they were really brutal.

Jeff [00:05:58] Was it a hard switch where you just had that conversation the next day you're working for CBC? Or was it starving artists, you know, have to go through years before you kind of make it?

Bruce [00:06:07] I developed a Proctor and Gamble strategy document using the exact format that I had been trained in, and I still have it. I actually send it to people who are doing career changes because it's very clear. It's like Objective: Great job in journalism. Goals: Salary, vacation, time. Then the Strategy. “I'm going to do these three things. Dah dah dah dah”. So I developed the plan, I executed the plan. I had a job within six weeks and I was on the air by Christmas. It was crazy how fast it ended up happening and I was lucky, it was my time in terms of the rise of business news in Canada. But I also executed the strategy and there's just so much people thinking and people talking and people dreaming. Do the work. You gotta do the work.

Jeff [00:06:52] So it didn't just actually come to you. You actually get after it.

Bruce [00:06:54] Oh, yeah.

Jeff [00:06:55] So another career pivot later, though, because you didn't just stick in journalism your whole career. Now you're doing a bunch of different things. Tell us a little bit of what you're working on right now and kind of what led you to that.

Bruce [00:07:02] So I anchored every U.S. Fed rate decision for years, and I built up the excitement of what's going to happen. “Oh, my God, I don't know what's going to happen”. And most of the time in those years, nothing happened. Literally nothing happened. But we had theme music and graphics and guests from around the world and it was so exciting and nothing happened. So eventually I got bored with that. I also had a lifestyle decision. My husband got the job running Theatre Calgary, which was a really big deal. So we left New York City so he could take that job running Theatre Calgary and I commuted for a couple of years and then I decided I'm going to move, we want to have a kid and I'm going to start again. So in the Bridgeland Community Centre, I started doing these personal finance workshops. And that led to a book deal with McClelland & Stewart. It led to a reality show on the Oprah Network, and then it led to CBC Money columnist, City Line, blah, blah, blah, Bruce, blah, blah, blah, doing all these things. So for 13 years I had this portfolio of speaking gigs and financial literacy consulting and media and blah blah blah. And then I got a headhunter call that would change the course of my life. And the headhunter call was to apply for the job of CEO of Canada's oldest credit counseling agency. And I'd sort of heard of them, Credit Canada. I knew of them, but I didn't really know what they did. And so I interviewed for the job, got the job, and that is principally what I do today.

Jeff [00:08:29] And what does Credit Canada do? Like, you know, what's the elevator pitch for Credit Canada?

Bruce [00:08:33] So Credit Canada's vision is to transform the use of credit for Canadians. Not improve it, not teach people about it, but transform behaviour. Which is a very high standard! It is a very ambitious goal, but our mission is very simple. We help people get out of debt so they can get back into life, and we do that in a whole bunch of ways. So since 1966, we have been around, we started as a small local credit counseling society, and of which there were many, many, many across this country. And over time, we started helping people do debt consolidation through a debt consolidation program. Historically, that has been the focus of the organization, it's been the main source of funding. But since my arrival, we've really broadened out our mandate to really look at the intersection of knowledge and insight. Right? Because if you're going to transform behaviour, knowledge is not going to cut it. You have to, have to, have to provide interventions on behaviour. So we've launched a number of initiatives that really get underneath the behavioural science, the intangibles of our behaviour around money. That's the huge impact. That's why I took the job, and that's what we're focused on.

Jeff [00:09:41] When you think of credit, I think a lot of people don't fully understand what it is, how it works. Maybe you just give people the kind of coles notes on credit, how it works, how to think about it.

Bruce [00:09:52] I think about credit as a way to do things that you may not be able to do if you didn't have it available to you. So, number one, it allows you to spread out a very large purchase over time. So you think about a mortgage, you're borrowing money for a house. Who has a million dollars in cash to buy a house? Almost no one. Bieber has, The Weeknd, Drake. Most of us do not have a million dollars. So we get a mortgage to spread that purchase out over time. Secondly, credit can enable us to weather the storms. So, the roof is leaking, the furnace is dead, we can get a loan. So those are the two main benefits. I think what people don't really understand in their bones [is] that they need to live within their means, over time. So, like maybe they've heard the phrase or whatever, but they don't behave in a way that has them truly understand that that's what the game is. So how that manifests in very practical terms is, millions of Canadians leave an outstanding balance on their credit card month to month. And there are those, for whom, there is no other choice. They're not going to have groceries if they don't do that. But for a large segment of the people who leave a balance on their credit card, is they're just clueless to the consequences of that behaviour. They're oblivious to it. They don't get it because if they really got how much it was costing them, they would make a different choice. So I'll give you the example of smoking. Back in the day, back in the sixties, seventies, smoking was just a thing that you did. And then something happened in the eighties, nineties and today where people were really clear on the consequences of smoking. It's not to say that people don't still smoke, they still do. But way, way fewer people smoke than before because we realize, in our bones, it'll kill you. It's going to kill you, in all likelihood. Not everybody, but most people, they're going to die earlier than they would have otherwise. We are not to that point, when it comes to credit card debt. People are like “La la la la, la. It's no big deal. It's no big deal.” And at some point, hopefully, they will wake up and go, “Oh my God, this credit card debt is ridiculous. I have got to put a stop to it.” And they will reduce the level of discretionary spending that they have. And no diss on your prior role in the world of food delivery, but that is one area in which people spend a lot of money. And so if you have $1 of credit card debt outstanding; $1, you should completely remove any food delivery from your life entirely because it's discretionary. So you focus solely on needs. You eliminate that debt, you are living within your means, you're cash flow positive. You're starting to save for things that are really important to you, that are going to make a big difference in your life. And once you have that surplus, you should be ordering the most delicious Thai food once a week, always and forever.

Jeff [00:12:33] But on the topic of building credit, though, Bruce, do you feel like the way that it's reported to the credit bureaus, the TransUnions, the Equifax’s, that monitor credit, do you feel like they have kept up with what is a accurate and modern way of viewing credit with a customer? Rent, for example, if people are paying their rent every single month, but the credit bureaus never get any visibility on that. The credit bureaus aren't looking at your cash flow on your account. They're just looking at “hey, you borrowed, you paid it back.”

Bruce [00:13:00] That is the leading question. It is very simple…

Jeff [00:13:03] I'm a little biased here.

Bruce [00:13:04] A little biased! Listen, it's a very easy answer. No, they have not kept up with the times. No, the current way it is done isn't great and does not serve consumers. And I will give you a very clear example. My identity was stolen recently. A criminal used my name and birthdate to apply for a credit card. They were granted that credit card. It was sent to a branch. They never picked it up, but it had an annual fee. I didn't pay the annual fee because I didn't know about the credit card. I didn't order the credit card. My credit score dropped 150 points in a week. I'm the CEO of Credit Canada. I am the money columnist for CBC Radio. And my credit score plummeted because of fraudulent activity. It has been months and months and months. It has been every phone call you can imagine, and it is still not corrected. So there's two things. One is the correction of those things is completely broken. But second, let's say that was what, I applied for a card, I picked up the card and I missed the payment. I didn't pay that minimum payment. Why was I, within a week, completely slammed against the wall and crushed under an asphalt paver? Why didn't someone pick up the phone and say, “Hey, that's weird. You've got this brand new card, you didn’t pay the bill. Are you good? Like what happened?” And that didn't happen. And that is fixable. AI can fix that. Like there's tons of technology that would fix that. So it's not that I think there's necessarily that the five main criteria are problematic, but the way those are executed are deeply problematic. And for people living on the margins, this is devastating. Imagine if I was applying for credit or applying for a mortgage and my score dropped that dramatically. I might not have got the mortgage or I would have paid a holy heck of a lot more.

Jeff [00:14:44] Yeah, it's life changing for some people. To your point, though, about food delivery and again, not to defend the whole food delivery industry here, but I feel like there's a generational difference in how people are viewing money. And I think that you've got people who are looking at cost savings. I'd say that's, you know, our parents' generation. And then you have more people, maybe my generation, is more thinking of time savings.

Bruce [00:15:03] Sure.

Jeff [00:15:04] And how do you balance those, though, especially if you're young and you want to get ahead in your career, you might spend money on things that actually help give you more time in your day, like food delivery.

Bruce [00:15:11] If you're cash flow positive, you should have food delivery every single day of the week. If that's what you want, fantastic, no judgment. Here's the disconnect. The younger generation is largely unaware of the choices they are making in the present that affect their life in the future. So if we look at the outstanding balances on credit cards, if we look at the participation in RRSPs or TFSAs, they're really low. And listen, you're younger than I am. Younger people have a harder go of it because credit is so available. So I'm still of the generation when banks were not open on the weekend. If you didn't go to the bank and get cash by Friday at two, you had no cash for the weekend. Whereas younger people can't even imagine that. They bank online all the time, their credit card is on their phone, and they believe it is a universal right to get what they want when they want it. And that has consequences. Humans have a very hard time distinguishing between needs and wants. You need food in your stomach. You want Thai food, at 11 at night. Of course you do! But you're stealing from your future self and people aren't aware of that. So if you're not, if you've got no credit card debt, if your RRSP is maxed out, if you've got savings for a down payment and a vacation, and you know the expenses that your new home will inevitably require you to spend, again, you should do whatever you want with your money. I don't have any judgment about it. It's that our brains do a terrible job at discounting for time, so we have a very hard time looking into the future and seeing how this story plays out.

Jeff [00:16:38] Do you feel that the way that people should manage their money should change depending on what phase in your life [you’re] at? And the reason I'm asking this is, at Neo, we have a ton of younger people. I think the average age is maybe 26 years old. You look at the decisions that people in their twenties make around money, the way that they make their decisions in their thirties and forties and fifties. How should people be changing the way they view money as they get older?

Bruce [00:17:01] There certainly is an age and stage dynamic and the priorities that you have as a parent of a kid are very, very different than when you're young. But I think the fundamental principle is you need to live within your means. Listen, I opened up an RRSP when I was 14, and if you have earned income, you can open up an RRSP as young as you want. So for a 26 year old, I would be, first of all, ensuring that you’re cash flow positive, and that may mean you need to move back in with your parents. Second of all, you need to eliminate all of your consumer debt immediately, as soon as you possibly can. And third, you need to be saving for the things that are important to you. And by the way, this generation may say that's not a house. Fine, great. Okay. But if you're not going to save for a house, you need to be saving that much more in terms of your TFSA or your RRSP or whatever, because you're not going to have the capital appreciation connected to real estate that someone who buys a house will have. So I, my generation, when we sell our house and we downsize to something cheaper, we have this windfall. So it's going to be, I don't know, a million dollars or something in a capital gain. You're not going to have to pay tax on it because it's your principal residence. If you rented your whole life, you have to make sure that you save more to offset the fact that you don't have an asset that you're going to liquidate and that's going to give you that windfall 30, 40 years down the road.

Jeff [00:18:18] But to your point around, like living within your means, though, when I think about that, you know myself like I'm 37 years old, in my twenties, it's like, well, what are my means? Because what my means are is going to depend on what my goals are or what I want to have in my life. Like, do I want to own a home? Do I want to have kids? Or at least maybe I'll ask you the question, Bruce, is that do you feel that people not figuring out what they want early enough in life in some ways can jeopardize how much they should be saving? Like, if I don't know if I'm going to have a kid, then how do I know that I need to be saving now?

Bruce [00:18:48] It's very easy. At some point you're going to want to stop working. Everyone's going to want to stop working, or they're going to be unable to work. So you're 85 years old, it is unlikely, whatever career path you follow, it is unlikely you're going to work at the capacity at 85 as you do at 45. So you're going to need a life in which you no longer earn a paycheck. Amazing. So starting as soon as you have an income, you need to max out your RRSP. Great, okay. So whatever your income coming in, there's some withheld at source, there's some that's not. You're going to max that out to its limit. If you only do that, when it comes to your future in retirement, super, super easy. You add a kid into the mix. Great, okay, so you've got this kid. You love this kid. The day they are born, you apply for a social insurance number. The day you have the social insurance number, you set up an automatic transfer from your bank account on payday to an RESP for 250 bucks. That kid's education is taken care of. I mean, maybe at the margins, you're going to have to save a little bit more or you know, they're going to get a job to pay for bucks, but you are done. So it's very simple. The industry makes this so hard. It's not hard. It's really not that hard. If you just maxed out your RRSP from the very, very beginning, that tax deferral is going to serve you for life. And if you can do that and then also do it with your TFSA, amazing. And then you're going to do it with your RESP. Even more amazing! And difficult, for most people just trying to make a living wage. But the programs are there. The education, the knowledge is all there. It's the behaviour that is not there.

Jeff [00:20:15] I think a lot of people just aren't thinking that long term. They're kind of thinking in the moment.

Bruce [00:20:19] Well, and we've got an instant gratification culture. It is an instant gratification culture. We want what we want when we want it. And you know, I remember when you would be perfectly fine to wait 15 minutes for a cab. Like if you ordered a cab, and it's 15 minutes [you were] like “Okay great!”. Now when I'm on my Uber app and it says 4 minutes, “Are you kidding me? Who has 4 minutes to wait for an Uber? I'm not waiting for 4 whole minutes. Person should be here 2, come on!”

Jeff [00:20:47] [Laughing] Yes, that’s true.

Bruce [00:20:48] There’s a laugh of recognition. You know this!

Jeff [00:20:49] I’ve definitely had grown men cry to me on the phone that a food delivery driver is 40 minutes away and not 20.

Bruce [00:20:54] Oh, yeah.

Jeff [00:20:55] But I feel like when you think about instant gratification, you think about technology, for example, and in the context of Neo, like we're on a mission to reimagine spending, saving, growing your money. What do you see coming down the pike that's going to disrupt financial services in Canada? What do you see happening from a technology perspective that's really going to change the landscape?

Bruce [00:21:16] I can say what I hope for and I am cynical about it. So here's what I hope for. I hope for a living budget. The banks don't do this. They have consolidated information, they've got a near lock on consumers. And so, Neo, I love that the upstarts are doing the best that they can, but hopefully open banking will allow for us to have a super simple, dynamic view of our personal finances at all times. And then we can make some assumptions that will automate the way that we live our life and save us from ourselves. Because if we had the wherewithal to say, you know, my credit card is unfortunately not valid at food delivery places, it's not valid at fast fashion, it's really only valid at a grocery store and a bargain grocery store, not a fancy one. Then that would enable us to manage our behaviour better.

Jeff [00:22:04] So you're saying force the behaviour?

Bruce [00:22:06] Yeah. I wouldn't say force, I'd say nudge. So I don't know if you've heard of an app called Noom. Have you heard of an app called Noom? It's a health app.

Jeff [00:22:13] I have, yeah.

Bruce [00:22:14] Yeah, so it's like a MyFitnessPal or any other one that will help you track your weight and your food and all that stuff. It includes this layer of behavioural science, which is great. It's very effective. People talk about it with great admiration. There is no Noom for personal finance. And the reason I think that is, is there is no money in helping people behave better. Let's use credit cards. Do the banks really want you to pay off your credit card to zero? No. They just don't want you to default. But if you keep an outstanding balance on your credit card over the course of years, it's amazing. They should send you an Edible Arrangement. You're such a good client because you're paying that interest to them. And what's so heartbreaking for me is the intersection between profit and social impact isn't there. And it's there in other areas, but it's not there in financial services. Really, I don't think it is because the entrenched players make a great amount of money from the inefficiencies in the marketplace.

Jeff [00:23:12] The technology is coming like the Buy Now, Pay Laters, the installment loans and BNPL brands itself as being kind of the alternative to credit. Do you see those as helping customers or do you see it as another flavor of credit card?

Bruce [00:23:25] It's worse than a credit card. So Buy Now, Pay Later encourages discretionary purchases. It reduces the pain of spending. It makes it very difficult for a human to do the mental math. Why do the retailers love them so? Is because they drive that shopping basket. That total shopping basket is higher because of those services. That’s why they're happy to pay for them from their marketing budget. Again, if you've got all the money in the world, you should totally do whatever you want. It's great. But if you don't, they mask a weakness in a human's ability to manage their cash flow. That's not technology that I'm jazzed about. I'm jazzed about Borrowwell and their inclusion of rent on credit score. I love that. I think that's great. There are some interventions from both banks and fintech upstarts like, you know, ‘save more tomorrow’ and all that kind of stuff. There are things out there, but I think it really has to live at this intersection of knowledge and behaviour and help humans save themselves from themselves.

Jeff [00:24:26] You do kind of need to feel that pain when you do buy something, especially if it is a discretionary purchase.

Bruce [00:24:31] Have you ever spent a week only using cash like, physical cash?

Jeff [00:24:35] Oh my goodness. Maybe in another country if I travelled abroad.

Bruce [00:24:39] Yeah, in another country. Exactly. Great example. Or when you were a teenager. So if we forced people to return to spending only cash, our psychology would do, I don't know, 80% of the work because you'd go into that fast fashion store and you'd be like, “Now my wallet is empty”, because the credit card doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like there's a limit. It doesn't feel like our money. So I think that's one thing, but it's totally unrealistic. The ship has sailed. We live in a cashless society. That's just the way that it is.

Jeff [00:25:08] We get asked probably a hundred times a day about when are we getting into crypto? What are we getting into NFTs? What's your stance on those financial products?

Bruce [00:25:19] If you want to play first person shooter games, if you want to bet on sports, if you want to hang out all day and make TikTok videos, all of those are delightful leisure activities. Most of them will give you a great dopamine hit. Crypto will give you a dopamine hit. It is not a strategy for your long term prosperity, and I know there are people who are going to tell me I'm a complete liar and I'm totally wrong because there are certainly people who have made buckets of money on crypto. I don't believe that's the future. I don't believe that is a model for most humans to set themselves up for a prosperous financial future. But listen, I'm not going to pooh-pooh it. If people enjoy it as a leisure activity, they should totally go do that.

Jeff [00:26:02] Just maybe don't put your retirement in there.

Bruce [00:26:04] No, I wouldn't put my retirement in there. My retirement savings are in the most boring, low cost, diversified exchange traded funds and have been since the late nineties.

Jeff [00:26:15] So I guess the question of what coins do you hold is a bit redundant at this point.

Bruce [00:26:19] Yeah.

Jeff [00:26:15] We're almost out of time here, Bruce, and I want to be mindful, but your approach to talking about personal finance is very nonjudgmental and comforting and rational. I really do appreciate the message that you're getting across because I think it is one that Canadians do want to hear. But is there anything that you want to get out to Canadians? You know, what would you like to tell them?

Bruce [00:26:37] Money is an extraordinary tool. It is an extraordinary tool for a life well lived. Learn to use the tool. As parents, teach your kids the tool. We spend so much time with our kids teaching them how to do stuff so they can function in the world. Teach them how to use that tool. And as grown ups, learn to use that tool not because you're going to buy the biggest home or have the best vacation in Cabo, but because it gives you freedom. You know how to use the tool, it gives you more freedom. And I'd love to say that the institutions are on your side. You know, I think in capitalism, they're out to make money. Governments are out to get reelected. So I think about, very much about an individual's circle of control and most of personal finance, not everything, most of personal finance is in your circle of control, so make use of that.

Jeff [00:27:31] How should people get a hold of you?

Bruce [00:27:33] Go to CreditCanada.com. If any of our listeners have any concern about the level of debt that they have or know someone who is concerned about the level of debt that they have. Book a call with a nonprofit credit counselor, me or our agency or any other, and figure out what your options are because there are options out there.

Jeff [00:27:50] Incredibly grateful for having you on. Really appreciate you, Bruce.

Bruce [00:27:53] It was totally my pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.

Jeff [00:28:02] Thank you for tuning into Behind the Brand presented by Neo. If you enjoyed today's show and are interested in joining Neo head over to join.neo.cc/podcast50, this link will also be available in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, so you never miss an episode. See you next week.