Behind the Brand®

Jeff Adamson [00:00:05] Welcome to Behind the Brand presented by Neo. We take an inside look at the leaders behind today’s most influential brands. I’m your host, Jeff Adamson. As co-founder of Neo Financial and SkipTheDishes, I’m fascinated by what it takes to build great companies.
On this podcast, we’ll learn from leaders that are reimagining, transforming, and innovating in the financial and retail industries across Canada. Let’s get going!

I am excited to introduce Eva Wong, Co-founder and Chief Operating Officer at Borrowell. With a background in management consulting and business development, Eva has worked around the world in both the private and not-for-profit sectors and has been on the board of many different companies.

Eva is an EY Entrepreneur of the Year® award winner in Ontario, and was named one of the Standout 35 globally on the 2018 Women in Fintech Powerlist. On a mission to help Canadians change the way they think and act about credit, Eva and her Co-founder, Andrew Graham, have built financial and social responsibility into their brand and culture. As members of The Upside Foundation, they have pledged to give a portion of their equity to charity.

It’s great to have you on the show, Eva!

Let's start from the beginning, Eva. Tell us the origin stories of Borrowell.

Eva Wong [00:00:45] So the original thesis for Borrowell came from my co-founder Andrew Graham. Andrew was really interested in what was happening in consumer finance around the world, and looking at Canadians realized that many of the problems that existed around the world existed in Canada as well. And I think in particular he was looking at credit cards and recognizing that a lot of people who use credit cards end up borrowing money at 20 or 30% interest without really realizing that that's what they were doing. And so I think we just understood that for the most part, a lot of people don't have a lot of financial education and that people weren't necessarily making the best financial decisions based on sort of like where they were at. And so, yeah, that's sort of how Borrowell was born. That's still the mission that we're focused on today, which is to help make financial prosperity possible for everyone.

Jeff [00:01:31] That's amazing. But what were you doing at the time? So did Andrew kind of call you up? How did you know each other? Did he say, like, “Eva quit your job”? Let’s go, let’s take no salary for a while and help me build this thing called Borrowell.

Eva [00:01:43] Yeah, so Andrew and I actually had met at a conference a number of years earlier, and we actually founded a not-for-profit together. So we still kept our day jobs, but we sort of dabbled in this entrepreneurial venture on the side, which for me was like a great way to get into it. I don't have a tech background. I don't have an entrepreneurship background. For me, it was like this super fun way of dabbling again in like building an organization. And I had done that with Andrew, and so we actually got to know each other through building something that wasn't Borrowell. So when he started Borrowell, I was actually on parental leave. I've got two kids, they're now 12 and 9. My daughter, who was maybe not quite one and I was thinking about what I wanted to do next. Andrew and I were having coffee, essentially I was like, “Do you know what? If I don't find a job, I'll just come and work for your startup.” And he was like, you know, I thought he was just going to laugh it off, that was my expectation. But he turned pretty serious, he was like, “Well, what would you do? Or what would you want to do?” And I was like, “I don't know. Like, I don't know what people do with startups.” I was like, “Well, whatever you need done, like, I'm happy to do it.” We ended the conversation, he's like, “Look, I need to practice giving my pitch”, he was going around trying to raise money, “So why don't I come give you the pitch and then we can take it from there?” So I think a couple of days later he came over to my house, sort of gave me the pitch, and I was really taken with it because it was solving a huge customer problem, consumer problem. But it was also an opportunity, I thought, to build a great big business. And I think the combination of those two things got me really excited. And I was also itching to get out of the house because, I know you've got young kids as well, you know, I've been sort of at home for a year with two young kids. We decided that I was going to spend a couple of weeks and just help out. We both had a ton of fun and after the end of two weeks, we decided to sort of extend the deal for three months. It's like, okay, like what could that look like at the end of three or four months? Andrew was successful in raising a round of funding, and then I came on as COO.

Jeff [00:03:42] I can't even imagine, leaving your day job to do a startup I think is scary enough, but to do it when you had small children, to me that seems super scary. Like how did you make that leap though? Like, especially in Toronto, like the cost of living is really high. Kids, as I know, aren’t cheap either. So what was your thought process going into it?

Eva [00:04:03] Do you know what? I think this is a super important conversation because I think a lot of people are scared and that fear is what prevents them from doing something that could be really exciting.

Jeff [00:04:11] Totally.

Eva [00:04:12] I think in some ways it was easier because I had been on parental leave, so I actually didn't have to go in and quit my job. I was already not working. I essentially made the phone call to be like, “Hey, I know I said I was probably going to be back in July”, It was like, “Look, I don't think I'm going to come back.” And thankfully, the company that I was working for, the organization said “If the startup thing doesn't work out, then give us a call back. We'd love to have you back.” So I sort of felt like I had a bit of a backstop that way.

But I would say, like, even for people who don't have that, the message I'd want to get across is that starting your own company or doing something more risky with your career doesn't somehow make you unemployable for the rest of your life. Do you know what I mean? If anything, you are gaining lots of skills and experiences, especially if you end up doing something in tech. And so I was like, “If this doesn't work out, I'll just go get a job.” You know what I mean? Like it really wasn't that big of a deal.

Jeff [00:05:03] Yeah, people make it a big thing. And like, I remember when I was quitting my day job, and it was a great job. I actually, I remember sitting outside the room prepping for the conversation with my boss and just honestly having so many butterflies in my stomach because I just felt like I was almost betraying them. They had been so good to me as an athlete for a long time. They gave me time off to go and represent Canada internationally and I didn't feel like I was going to be a great fit for the company moving forward and I felt like there was probably better people who could do the job. And then I sat down and told them they were like they said the same thing that you just mentioned. They said, “Well, listen, if it doesn't work out, there's always a job for you here. So just let us know.”

Eva [00:05:39] Right, that's so great.

Jeff [00:05:40] And I just couldn't believe how little, I mean maybe I wasn't all that great of an employee, but it wasn't that big of a deal for them.

Eva [00:05:46] I doubt that's the case! I do think that we sometimes worry about the future, maybe a little bit too much. Even if they didn't make that offer to you, you probably could have found another job that would pay the bills.

Jeff [00:05:57] Career-wise, sure. Like so, the quitting part, yes there’s some anxiety around that. But to do it when you had kids, though, because your income certainty is lower, starting Borrowell, in the short term. Where were you at, at the time. Were you at The Meeting House?

Eva [00:06:12] Yeah, so I was actually working for a church. I had already sort of taken a pay cut to do that. I guess one of the things that I would tell listeners, if you're thinking about at some point starting a business. Like I remember listening to someone who said like from when they were a student to when they got their first job, they actually didn't change their lifestyle that much. I thought that was like super smart. Like, you're already living that lifestyle. You're probably pretty happy as a student. And so I think what happens is that so often if we're making more money, you end up spending more money, you adjust your lifestyle. I think for us, because we’d made the decision, my husband also worked in the not-for-profit sector, we just sort of managed our expenses. And I mean, that was actually one of the other hidden benefits of going on parental leave, is I'd also taken another pay cut because I didn't get a top up from my employer. In terms of like where we were at, I was just like, okay, well, we'll just keep living the same way that we've been living, Like sort of pretend that I've extended my parental leave for another three months. And I get there's like a ton of privilege in that as well. You know, I had help from my parents on childcare and there were a lot of things that were super helpful. But I do think that making a conscious decision to try to really live below our means, not even within but below, and again, I get that in this environment it's like super challenging. This was ten years ago when, you know, even though it felt like the cost of housing was crazy back then, it doesn't compare to where it's at today. But I think the general principle of like as much as you can, keep your costs under control so that you're not dependent on a job that pays you huge, huge sums of money, and you need that month over month in order to make things work. I think like, this was not something I could have done forever. I'd sort of put a bit of a time frame on it and thankfully it worked out. But for us it was like, “Could I go with a pretty reduced income for like three or four months?” It's like we looked at it like, “Yeah, we could do this. Like if it doesn't work out, I'll go get a job and we'll be okay.”

Jeff [00:07:58] It's almost like, how meager can you live to keep your burn rate down? Otherwise you’re going to have to raise large sums of money just to kind of pay your own salary, you know, that you're just diluting. I know that in the early days of our first startup, starting SkipTheDishes, I lived in a fourplex and I like, rented out everything I could and had roommates and was like eating ramen noodles. And sometimes, like, you'd be on the road and I couldn't afford a hotel. And it was like, “Okay, well, I'm going to maybe just crash at my buddy's house or…” But if I was used to living in five-star hotels and king-sized beds, I would have been like, “Oh my God, this is awful.” But at the same time, a single guy in his twenties isn't exactly like, I was not accustomed to those things at all, so it was pretty easy for me to take on the startup lifestyle. When you think, Eva, about those early days, a lot of people don't get exposure to the early days of a startup, when it's just you and Andrew or maybe you've got a few employees. How do you describe those early days to people?

Eva [00:08:55] In a lot of ways it's like working on a school project. So we had space at what's now Metropolitan University in their digital media zone. At some times there were four of us. Other times it was up to like seven or eight of us. We all sat around, essentially one giant table, which I think were a bunch of like desks put together. And it was a lot of writing on whiteboards and brainstorming, and it was fun and I think we learned so much. It was fun, it was challenging, it was stressful, of course, at times, but a lot of it did feel very much like, okay, you're starting something from scratch, you really need to have everything. We would have, you know, mathematical formulas written up on like, how would you calculate this? That's the best way I can describe it, which is you get like five to seven people and you're working on this project and you're trying to launch this business.

Jeff [00:09:42] Do you get the sense that a lot of people look at tech startups and say, “Oh, hey, like, I don't know how to code or I'm not a tech person.” All these other companies, like the Zuckerberg and Elon Musk's and the Bill Gates’, and they all have these like technical backgrounds. But you don't come from necessarily a pure technical background either. Was that discouraging for you? Or did you kind of like shrug that off and say, I don't need it, I can actually find people who are technical and work together with them?

Eva [00:10:06] Fortunately for me, we had someone on the team who had a technical background, so that wasn't the expectation of like the role that I would play. But one of the things I would really encourage people who don't have a technical background to think about is all the rest of the skills and experiences that they have that Mark Zuckerberg probably didn't have as a 20-year old college student. I think it's super interesting that in our culture we sort of aren't surprised that a 20-year old college student could be a successful entrepreneur. But we have a hard time thinking that a 35-year old woman with more than ten years of really relevant work experience wouldn't be a successful entrepreneur, wouldn't be successful at starting a business. So I really don't think that there is any background or skill-set that's required to start a business because you're going to build a team around you and whatever skills you don't have are the skills that you should be looking for in your co-founders, or in the rest of the team.

Jeff [00:10:58] So then skills aside then, are there attributes that you think are absolutely necessary for a co-founder or founding team?

Eva [00:11:06] I think you have to care. Like, I think you have to care about the problem because that's like where the motivation comes from to actually get through the hard times of not being able to solve the problem, roadblocks coming up, competitors coming in, competitors coming in who are way more funded than you are. I do think that just like caring enough and then that motivation to persevere is maybe the only thing other than resilience. Because I think those two things go hand-in-hand. I do think that those are maybe a couple of the attributes I would say is caring because I think motivation comes from that. And then the second one is just being able to be punched in the face and get back up tomorrow and be willing to be punched in the face again.

Jeff [00:11:46] So when you talk about caring, though, I feel like a lot of people have been like, “Oh, I care about my job”, but are they working until midnight every night? What's that level of caring that you think you need in the beginning? Like, is it from eyes open to eyes closed thinking about the problem that we're solving? Very few people do I ever talk to are like “Ah I just don't really care. I just kind of like showing up every day.” Is there somewhere in between or do you need to be on the extreme of like, “No, I think about this problem all day.”

Eva [00:12:09] I don't think you have to be obsessed with it. I do think that there is, again, this stereotype out there about entrepreneurs being obsessed and, you know, working till midnight every night. That also scares people off from being an entrepreneur. And I think if that had been what I had gone into this with, I don't know that I would have done it. Because, again, this is, you know, like I had two young kids at the time, I might have been up till midnight, but that was because they weren't sleeping.

Jeff [00:12:32] I feel you.

Eva [00:12:33] And in the early days for sure, there were late nights, but I think we quickly found out that that wasn't sustainable. Thankfully now I think within the startup ecosystem there's an understanding that wellness and being mentally in a good space, physically in shape, is actually really important to success as well. I think a lot of people have burnout and if you're obsessed and you are working super late hours, that actually isn't necessarily the healthiest thing because it may not be sustainable for the long term. You might find it hard to recruit team members who can sustain that to the same degree as you, right? And then you end up with an unhealthy work culture. I think you have to care a lot about solving the problem and I just wouldn't necessarily equate [the] number of hours awake working on the problem with caring.

Jeff [00:13:18] Yeah, I think it's true. If not everyone's going to sign up for the same job as the founders and other people have other priorities. And the fact that you started the business while you had young children just means that, like, you almost have no choice but to have some diversity in your day-to-day or else your kids are going to be or your husband's going to be pretty miserable, too.

Eva [00:13:37] Yeah. You know, I do think that that is another benefit. Like, I think you can look at everything in your life with either glass half full or a glass half empty lens. And I was really glad that I had sort of a forced break. And I think maybe in your situation, there wasn't this forcing mechanism that like forced you to take a break from your work. But I was really glad I had that and this sort of half joke was if any of us got a divorce, that would be way more disruptive to the business than to our lives [laughs]. So, you know, we had to keep our spouses and our kids happy, which obviously isn't the reason why I wanted to spend time with my kids and my husband. I think those breaks are super healthy, right? It's like you take a break and you get a moment of clarity or you're inspired by something else or you just like come back to a problem with fresh eyes. I think it is really important to take some breaks from what you're doing and have a life outside of your identity as a founder.

Jeff [00:14:25] I want to zoom in on a problem that Borrowell is solving. How has the problem changed from when you started to where you are now?

Eva [00:14:34] Yeah, so I think in the early days the problem that we had was just getting trust with consumers and getting our name out there, right? Like so much of it is, as a new company, especially in financial services, as you’d understand, people don't trust you. And I think Canadians, especially because they've grown up with these bank brands that they've known since they either landed in the country or since they were born. There can be like a nervousness of interacting with a new financial entity. So I think in the early days, building trust was super, super important. Now it is still important as well. But I would say that, there's that we've been around for a few more years, people have heard of us. You know, it's like if you Google Borrowell, you'll find articles about us. You probably have a friend or family member who is a Borrowell member and can tell you about their experience. So I think those things are a little bit easier. I think for now our challenge is like, how do we continue to help our members in new and innovative ways? In the early days, there's so much low hanging fruit. It's a lot easier, I think, to sort of get that growth. As you become a bit more mature, it's like, okay, well what else can we do? Obviously the problem is really big, so there's like lots. And I think it's a balance between like, you know, how do you maintain and continue to do a great job with your existing business while investing in new product ideas?

Jeff [00:15:47] And you guys were one of the first companies, certainly in Canada, maybe even in North America, to offer free credit score reporting to Canadians. Why is that so important?

Eva [00:15:56] Yeah, we were the first to offer credit scores for free in Canada. And the reason why I think it's so important is that, that knowledge is power. The analogy that I give is, let's say that over the pandemic we've gained a bit of weight and what we want to do is we want to, like, try to lose some of that pandemic weight that we've gained. And you're trying different things but let's say that I only let you step on a scale once a month, and I charged you $30 every single time you stepped on that scale. It's like a super helpful measurement to, like, know how you're doing. You might be like testing different things, different exercise, different food, but like, I'm not letting you find out how you're doing. I think that's exactly the same thing with credit scores, is that for many people, you would have to just pay money to the credit bureau to get your score on a monthly basis. If you want it more frequently, you'd have to pay more. And you're trying to help people improve their financial lives, but you're not giving them the metric by which a lot of people are judging you, which is your credit score. So I think that transparency around not only the score but like what's going into it, what's in your credit report? What are things you can do to improve? And a lot of people will tell us it was super helpful, in three months I'd improved my score by like 50 or 100 points. Now I feel super confident when I go in to apply for a mortgage that I'm going to get approved.

Jeff [00:17:08] How do we reduce the stigma associated with this? And maybe you'll tell me, “Hey, Jeff, there isn't a stigma.” Maybe it’s just my family that feels awkward talking about credit scores and money. The weight analogy you made is like, if I put on 100 pounds, people are going to notice that. If my credit score drops 100, they're probably not going to notice it.

Eva [00:17:23] Right.

Jeff [00:17:24] How do we remove some of the stigma associated with finance in general so that people can be more open with how they build better financial lives?

Eva [00:17:33] So, first of all, I'll let you know that your family is not an anomaly. There is a huge amount of stigma and I think a lot of shame as well that people feel about their personal financial situation. I think there's a lot of parallels with mental health and they actually are connected.

Jeff [00:17:48] Absolutely.

Eva [00:17:48] Financial stress is one of the major stressors that Canadians face today. It is a huge contributor to mental health as well. We've come a long way in the last like 10 or 20 years in talking about mental health. And my hope is that with financial services, we're also moving in that same direction. I think there's an understanding that there's like a need for more education, a need for more transparency. And I love the trend of TikTok personal finance and some of the other things where people are talking about tips and tricks and like good habits to build. I think the more we can talk about it, the better. Just to, like, normalize that like, you don't just come to Canada or you're not, like, born understanding how this works. It's something you have to learn.

Jeff [00:18:28] Yeah. And I definitely feel you on that connection between mental health and financial anxiety. I remember earlier days of Skip when we were kind of in desperation mode of “Hey, we don't really know if this is going to work out.” Many of the founders had kind of maxed out credit cards and we're not paying ourselves a salary and it's been years since we've paid ourselves. This is the phrase my wife uses, but like your bank account looks like a snowball sitting in front of the sun. And then you start thinking like, “How am I going to make rent next month?” You have this kind of cloud that kind of hangs over you and and like, how do you live a full and happy life when this is just kind of following you everywhere that you go? I think it is something that we do need to start thinking about in a similar way. Everyone wants to do better and sometimes they just maybe don't know how to do it because we never want to talk about it.

Eva [00:19:19] Yeah, that's right.

Jeff [00:19:20] Now, when you think about how you're extending out into solving new problems, how is technology improving people's financial situations? How is Borrowell thinking about leveraging new innovation to improve the financial lives of Canadians?

Eva [00:19:35] It's really core because I do think that 10, 20 years ago, if you wanted really great, personalized financial advice, you had to go and pay an advisor and they would comb through all of your bills. You'd have to like document your spending for a month or two. It would be a long, drawn out process that probably would cost you a good amount of money. And what we're hoping to do with technology is to be able to democratize that and make that available to everybody so that we can give you really great personalized financial tips and advice, but do it in a way that is maybe actually easier then hopefully it's like way easier and also free to be able to to give to people. But also in a way where you're like not sitting across from someone because of that, you know, shame that you might feel about your personal finances. I think for a lot of people, they would rather have an app where they can go in and sort of see stuff and do their own thing and not necessarily have to have that face-to-face conversation with someone. So I think there's lots of examples where we can sort of look at someone's credit report and see that like maybe month over month, they're getting into more debt, right? Or maybe they're using a financial product that actually isn't the best one out there for them. If they're using Borrowell and improving their credit score, making more of their payments on time. Their credit score has improved and they actually now qualify for a loan that's a lower interest rate, they could pay off the loan that they have [and] get out of debt faster. So those are the kinds of things that we're looking at. Again, using technology, [to be] able to surface better product recommendations, surface tips and things like that.

Jeff [00:21:07] So maybe for the listeners that haven't downloaded Borrowell...

Eva [00:21:09] Which they should. [Laughs]

Jeff [00:21:10] Absolutely they should! Walk people through the experience. So why would they download it? What's it like when they download Borrowell? What products are available to them? And how does it really impact their day to day life?

Eva [00:21:23] My hope is that it really gives people peace of mind that they are on the right track for managing their finances no matter where they're at in their financial journey. And so if you download the Borrowell app or you can use our web app as well, you fill in a bit of information. It only takes two or 3 minutes. And if you've got a credit report, then we'll pull that from Equifax and you'll see right away what is your credit score? This number between 0 and 900, you'll actually sort of like know where you're at in a snapshot, but we’ll also show you your credit report. You'll sort of see like, you know, what credit cards you have? What's your credit limit? How much of that are you using? Do you have any missed payments? So you sort of see all of that. And we've got a credit coach named Molly, a virtual credit coach who will sort of like walk you through and say, “Hey, this is how you're doing. Here are some tips. Here are the things that impact your credit score.” And it’s all color coded to be like, “Hey, on your payment history. You're doing, great, you're a green”, but maybe you're a yellow on credit utilization. You're using like a bit too much of your credit. So we try to make it really easy and intuitive to understand A) where you stand today, and B) what are some tips for improving your score? In addition to sort of like the credit education piece, we do have a huge marketplace of financial products and we really help people navigate through those. So if you're looking for a credit card, we’ll help you understand what's the likelihood that you'll get approved for it. We've also built lots of great integrations with a number of our partners so that you don't have to sort of like click away and refill in. I actually don't mind filling in forms, but I think a lot of people just don't like filling in forms. So you'll be able to apply for a lot of products just totally within the Borrowell ecosystem and again, maybe get a better interest loan or a better credit card than you have. That's a big part of what we do.

Jeff [00:23:05] And you've recently come up with a few new products, though. Can you shed some light on some of those?

Eva [00:23:09] Yeah. In the last six months, we've launched two new products. One is called Credit Builder, and the other one is Rent Advantage. And so in addition to the credit education that we give, the Credit Builder and Rent Advantage products help you to be able to build your credit history with some specific products. So the Credit Builder is a secured loan where you can make payment on a monthly basis that gets reported to the credit bureau. You're sort of like demonstrating that you can make those payments on time and then with Rent Advantage, what we're doing is enabling for the first time, tenants to be able to report their rent payments to the credit bureau.

Jeff [00:23:42] So cool! I mean, it makes total sense. And why wouldn't one of the biggest expenses that you have in your life help you build your credit if you're, you know, paying rent on time?

Eva [00:23:51] Yeah.

Jeff [00:23:52] I was talking to one of my colleagues yesterday about you guys and about credit in general. It reminds me a lot of exercise and diet because we all know we should eat better. We all know we should go for a workout every day, but often we just don't. Like it, just kind of we get lazy or we get complacent. And I feel like with credit in a lot of ways, it's kind of, “Yeah, I know I should do all those things, but it's sometimes just a pain in the butt.” And there are some gotchas out there, you know, I know eating a donut isn't good for me. And I know, like, if I don't pay my credit card bill, that's like, not good for me. But, like, how do we make it easier for people to build credit? Like, everyone wants that silver bullet.

Eva [00:24:25]Yeah.

Jeff [00:24:26] And I know it'll never get to the point where it's just you never have to do anything. The future that you see, is there a world where a lot of this is automated and a lot of this is kind of done for you? Or is it always going to be really about financial discipline?

Eva [00:24:39] I think it's a little bit of both. And I think it's super interesting. And there's definitely visions out there of people being a lot less involved. And I do think that as you maybe get more confident, maybe more things are on autopilot. So I think a lot of things are about habit, those like little habits that you build. I don't know if you've, there's like lots of great books on the topic. I really like ‘Atomic Habits’ by an author named James Clear, but he talks a lot about how if you want to accomplish things or like make changes, you have to like do it in little steps and make it a regular habit. One of the things that we try to do at Borrowell is make some of those things that would otherwise maybe not feel so good, actually feel good, and deliver that dopamine hit that you might get from buying a great pair of shoes. All those things that they're maybe not as healthy financial behaviours give you that feeling of, “Oh, this is so fun and so great.” How can we deliver that same thing for when you're doing like really good financial habits? Those things on a daily basis. So you try to be really encouraging. It's like, “Hey, you like your credit score improved this week!” Whether it's like the praise emoji or that encouragement, you're like, “Oh, my goodness, that does feel good!” So it feels good to save, it feels good to pay your bills because otherwise it's like, no one really gives you a pat on the back, right? If you pay your water bill on time. But we're trying to be that and to do that. It's like, what is your goal? Is your goal to save something? Can we help you track that? Can we celebrate that win with you?

Jeff [00:25:56] Back to that kind of stigma around credit and finance? If you achieve a life goal most of the time, that's like all over social media. But if you achieved your financial goal, typically you're not seeing that trending on social media where it's like, “Hey, I increased my credit score by like 100 points this year.”

Eva [00:26:12]Yeah.

Jeff [00:26:13] That's actually something someone should be proud of. Or if they saved up, and they're like, “Hey, I saved up.” And I know it sounds kind of corny, but like for some people, saving up to go on that trip is absolutely incredible because maybe they've just failed to do it so many times because they didn't have the discipline and they finally did it. But we don't really celebrate all the inputs that went into them accomplishing their financial goal because it's about finance. They do think there's a social aspect that Borrowell will be able to come out with?

Eva [00:26:42] I do think so and I do think there are some things like that, that maybe aren't as mainstream. But there are like mortgage printing parties, right? When someone's paid off their mortgage, where they burn their mortgage papers.

Jeff [00:26:53] Oh, that's so cool!

Eva [00:26:54] Yeah. Or like I've seen some people share that they've like paid off credit card debt or like they're, that they're out of debt. And I think that's like a great thing to celebrate. But to your point, like, I do think that our financial goals are actually life goals as well. So maybe you don't celebrate getting a mortgage, but you do celebrate like moving into your own home for the first time. Maybe it is just like associating some of those financial goals with life goals that are celebrated.

Jeff [00:27:16] I totally agree. Yeah, we do celebrate people who when they buy a home, but it's like, “Yes, congrats. But you've now taken on all this risk. Now you have all this debt.” I love this idea of like a mortgage burning party. In fact, I'm going to put that one on the list. What's got you optimistic about the future, Eva?

Eva [00:27:29] Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I'm really optimistic about is the number of tech companies that are coming out, right? I think it's great that there are more fintech companies in Canada. And I do think that the more choice that people have and the more we're sort of pushing maybe some of the legacy institutions into offering either more transparent services or more services. I think the more choice there is out there for consumers, the better options they'll be, the more customized it will be to sort of different people's needs. So that's something I'm super excited about. As you mentioned, Borrowell was maybe like one of the first consumer fintech companies eight years ago and I'm just super excited that there are way more of us today.

Jeff [00:28:05] Absolutely. And Canada has a thriving tech scene. Even I remember ten years ago when we first started our first tech startup, I didn't even know what a tech startup was. And now today it's like there's just tech companies everywhere. There's a lot of VCs that are now looking up north and investing in Canadian companies. You guys probably started before even fintech was a word and like, now look at it in Canada and I'm just super grateful that we know you guys and that you've been generous with your time to come on here and chat about financial technology and how we can help Canadians. Where should people find you guys? Where should they follow you? How do they get a hold of you?

Eva [00:28:40] I think if you are not currently using Borrowell and you're in Canada, I really recommend you download the app or sign up for an account. I do think that if you're interested in learning about fintech or for your own personal financial health, I definitely recommend downloading Borrowell. And we are on Instagram. That's probably the best place I think where we post like more of our content. It's @myborrowell on Instagram.

Jeff [00:29:02] Eva Wong, thank you so much for coming on. I'm going to be pumping Borrowell around all the people here at Neo, my friends and family. This has been awesome. Thank you so much.

Eva [00:29:11] That's great. Thanks so much, Jeff. It was great chatting with you.

Jeff [00:29:19] Thank you for tuning into Behind the Brand presented by Neo. If you enjoyed today's show and are interested in joining Neo, head over to join.neo.cc/podcast50. This link will also be available in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode. See you next week.